RE : [MUD-Dev2] Bad Terminology: MMO, MMORPG vs. MUD

14 messages in this thread from mud-dev2 in 2008-09

  1.   Jean, Yannick <yannick.jean@cg...com> 09-15 15:29
  2.   Michael Hartman <mlist@th...com> 09-16 01:55
  3.   Michael Chui <saraid216@gm...com> 09-19 15:54
  4.   Vincent Archer <archer@fr...org> 09-23 15:27
  5.   Adam Martin <adam.m.s.martin@go...com> 09-19 16:11
  6.   Acius <adamhelps@gm...com> 09-23 00:40
  7.   Jon Mayo <jon.mayo@gm...com> 09-24 17:41
  8.   Mike Oxford <szii@sz...com> 09-25 01:13
  9.   Mike Sellers <mike@on...com> 09-30 02:49
  10.   cruise <cruise@ca...net> 09-25 08:54
  11.   Vincent Archer <archer@fr...org> 09-23 15:32
  12.   Aurel <aurel.gets.mail@gm...com> 09-24 15:46
  13.   Vincent Archer <archer@fr...org> 09-29 14:35
  14.   Zach Collins (Siege) <siegemail@gm...com> 10-12 01:24

Jean, Yannick <yannick.jean@cg...com>

2008-09-15 15:29:53
Adam Martin wrote:
> "MMO".
>
> Or, if you're afraid of the MMORPG stigma, try:"Casual MMO" or even go
> all the way and just say "Online Games".
>
> But, personally, recalling the Endless War over
> MUD/MOO/MUSH/MMO/G(raphical)MUD/M*/MM*/MMOG/3D-MUD/VisualMUD/etc/etc/etc/etc...
> I'd suggest: pick the simplest term that the largest number of people
> use, worry less about terminology, and just get on with life :) . 
Why not just "MOG" - Multiplayer Online Game ?

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Michael Hartman <mlist@th...com>

2008-09-16 01:55:32
Jean, Yannick wrote:
> Why not just "MOG" - Multiplayer Online Game ?
Because that applies to Quake or even chess.

The thing about POW is that the P and the W hit on the really key 
elements. Persistence and World.

MUD was nice as well, but I don't see how we could possibly get that 
term back into use.


-- 
Michael Hartman, J.D. (http://www.frogdice.com)
President & CEO, Frogdice, Inc.
University of Georgia School of Law, 1995-1998
Georgetown University School of Foreign Service, 1990-1994
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Michael Chui <saraid216@gm...com>

2008-09-19 15:54:33
I've seen two lately that I think are better than anything yet proposed.

PSW - Persistent State World. Doesn't roll off the tongue, but I don't see
why it should.
Source: http://www.igda.org/wiki/Online_Games_SIG#This_Wiki

"crowd game" - "We just call them crowd games. The crowd on the cloud. So
simple, easy. I don't get why you don't use it the easy way." I don't care
if it's not an acronym. Why does it have to be an acronym?
Source: Bruce Sterling's AGDC keynote,
http://www.raphkoster.com/2008/09/16/agdc-bruce-sterling-keynote/

-- 
-Michael Chui
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Vincent Archer <archer@fr...org>

2008-09-23 15:27:20
According to Michael Chui:
> PSW - Persistent State World. Doesn't roll off the tongue, but I don't see
> why it should.
The problem of Persistent State World is that there are really few games
where the world has a persistent state. In fact, for most of the worlds,
the state self-restores to its original state rather quickly ("respawn").

Its on-line presence, however, is persistent - except during maintenance.

-- 
	Vincent Archer			Email:	archer@fr...org

All men are mortal.  Socrates was mortal.  Therefore, all men are Socrates.
							(Woody Allen)
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Adam Martin <adam.m.s.martin@go...com>

2008-09-19 16:11:23
2008/9/16 Michael Hartman <mlist@th...com>:
> Jean, Yannick wrote:
>>
>> Why not just "MOG" - Multiplayer Online Game ?
>
> The thing about POW is that the P and the W hit on the really key elements.
> Persistence and World.
The thing about POW is that it isn't MMO.

Here are 21 million (approx) reasons why you're all wrong:

http://www.google.com/search?q=mmo

Sorry :(. Really, I am. If you're going to do a search/replace on
every document and every webpage in existence, then ... awesome!

Otherwise, it's too late for you to change this terminology now.
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Acius <adamhelps@gm...com>

2008-09-23 00:40:56
Adam Martin wrote:
> 2008/9/16 Michael Hartman <mlist@th...com>:
>> Jean, Yannick wrote:
>>> Why not just "MOG" - Multiplayer Online Game ?
>> The thing about POW is that the P and the W hit on the really key elements.
>> Persistence and World.
> 
> The thing about POW is that it isn't MMO.
> 
> Here are 21 million (approx) reasons why you're all wrong:
> 
> http://www.google.com/search?q=mmo
> 
> Sorry :(. Really, I am. If you're going to do a search/replace on
> every document and every webpage in existence, then ... awesome!
> 
> Otherwise, it's too late for you to change this terminology now.
*shrug* ... it changed from MUD, didn't it? And if a few dozen prominent 
locations use the POW term (gaming magazines, advertising, developer 
interviews, marketing departments...), then it becomes a valid alternative.

Names are far from static (Peking->Beijing? Constantinople->Istanbul?). 
Of course you're not going to wipe out the MMO* name, because it's 
well-entrenched. That's not the goal. The goal is to provide a 
palatable, attractive alternative, and make room for it in public 
discourse. The best time to be doing this sort of thing is when you're 
pushing an upgrade: "We don't consider Siege of Fish City to be an 
MMORPG. We are calling it a Persistent Online World, because of the USPs 
listed here on my boring PowerPoint slide."

-- Adam Helps

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Jon Mayo <jon.mayo@gm...com>

2008-09-24 17:41:11
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:11 AM, Adam Martin
<adam.m.s.martin@go...com> wrote:
> 2008/9/16 Michael Hartman <mlist@th...com>:
>> Jean, Yannick wrote:
>>>
>>> Why not just "MOG" - Multiplayer Online Game ?
>>
>> The thing about POW is that the P and the W hit on the really
>> key elements.  Persistence and World.
>
> The thing about POW is that it isn't MMO.
>
> Here are 21 million (approx) reasons why you're all wrong:
>
> http://www.google.com/search?q=mmo
>
> Sorry :(. Really, I am. If you're going to do a search/replace on
> every document and every webpage in existence, then ... awesome!
>
> Otherwise, it's too late for you to change this terminology now.
We had a name for Blacks that we didn't like, so we changed that. Andit
was far more established than the term MMO.

ah yes, I managed to equate role playing with the civil rightsmovement.
next I will try and rationalize the Nazis for rhetoricalreasons. Isn't
the internet grand?

But in all seriousness, if the industry decides a term is notmarketable
anymore. Like the term MMO becomes way too diluted thensomeone will pick
some new term or acryonym and push that newpseudo-brand. The term RPG is
on the verge of being diluted in themarket, they now call games like
Overlord an "Action RPG" even thoughmost of the game's elements are like
the GameCube game Pikman. (a sortof puzzle/problem solving game). It was
bad enough to call Diablo, aclick fest hack and slash that was a
rogue-like with pretty artwork,an RPG. But at least there were some
stats and things that remindedpeople of D&D.

Once a few more webgames start calling themselves "massivelymultiplayer"
I think we'll be able to declare victory and mark theterm MMO as
obsolete.

recently my friend pointed out his interesting definition of
massivelymultiplayer in response to my (arbitrary) requirement that to
bemassive you need 100s if not 1000s of players: "A game is not MMOuntil
it has more people than you can fit in your basement at a LANparty."

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Mike Oxford <szii@sz...com>

2008-09-25 01:13:00
Jon Mayo wrote:
> But in all seriousness, if the industry decides a term is notmarketable
> anymore. Like the term MMO becomes way too diluted thensomeone will pick
> some new term or acryonym and push that newpseudo-brand.
May I suggest everyone start using "plod?"

What's a plod?

It's a noun.  "Did you play on CompanyX's new plod?"
It's a verb.  "Hey, you going to plod tonight?"
It's an adjective: "That game was a plod."
It's an adverb: "Our session was ploddingly good."

It's what every "MMO/MUD *IS*":  A slow progression (usually linear) 
through levels and experiences.

It's not cynicism ... it's just an observation.

And, as an odd social experiment, I think it would be fun to have 
everyone start using the term for a period of 30 days,
in casual fashion, as if it was already an accepted industry term.  At 
that point, assess the spread, if any.

Bonus points if it gets picked up and put into print on an unaffiliated 
website.
Bonus bonus points if its in hard-copy.

Pick your term.  I will be playing.  Game on.

-Mike "Szii" Oxford
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Mike Sellers <mike@on...com>

2008-09-30 02:49:16
Mike Oxford wrote: 
> Jon Mayo wrote:
> > But in all seriousness, if the industry decides a term is 
> > notmarketable anymore. Like the term MMO becomes way too diluted 
> > thensomeone will pick some new term or acryonym and push 
> that newpseudo-brand.
> >   
> May I suggest everyone start using "plod?"
> 
> What's a plod?
> 
> It's a noun.  "Did you play on CompanyX's new plod?"
> It's a verb.  "Hey, you going to plod tonight?"
> It's an adjective: "That game was a plod."
> It's an adverb: "Our session was ploddingly good."
Given this, how about a few other contenders:

MUCUS: Multi-User Combined Unlimited Simulation
PUS: Persistent User Simulation
SCUM: Symbolic Combined User Modalities

I'm sure we could come up with more along these lines with a little thought.

> It's not cynicism ... it's just an observation.
Oh.  Mine was more cynicism.  And disbelief that people are twisted up about
an acronym like 'MMOG.'  I think maybe some of you need to spend a little
more time with the military to get this aversion to odd acronyms wrung out
of you.

Mike Sellers

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cruise <cruise@ca...net>

2008-09-25 08:54:15
Thus spake Jon Mayo...
> recently my friend pointed out his interesting definition of
> massivelymultiplayer in response to my (arbitrary) requirement that to
> bemassive you need 100s if not 1000s of players: "A game is not MMOuntil
> it has more people than you can fit in your basement at a LANparty."
Is that before or after dismemberment?


With respect to all those that asked, "Why bother?" - why not?

Sure, the term may not get anywhere, but it certainly won't if no one 
tries. I don't expect to change the vocabulary of gamers everywhere by 
myself, but the feedback so far seems too good to do nothing with.

I'm a game programmer - I create entire universes for fun. If changing 
the world seems like too much work, I'm in a the wrong job :P
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Vincent Archer <archer@fr...org>

2008-09-23 15:32:39
According to Adam Martin:
> The thing about POW is that it isn't MMO.
> 
> Here are 21 million (approx) reasons why you're all wrong:
In computing, we've railed for years about "hackers". We've taken
pains to educate everybody about what a "hacker" is, and what a
"hacker" isn't, and why what everybody calls a hacker should not
be called that.

In the end... the users won. And I call the hackers hackers now,
as well.

-- 
	Vincent Archer			Email:	archer@fr...org

All men are mortal.  Socrates was mortal.  Therefore, all men are Socrates.
							(Woody Allen)
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Aurel <aurel.gets.mail@gm...com>

2008-09-24 15:46:01
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 12:11 PM, Adam Martin <
adam.m.s.martin@go...com> wrote:

>
> The thing about POW is that it isn't MMO.
>
> Here are 21 million (approx) reasons why you're all wrong:
>
> http://www.google.com/search?q=mmo
>
> Sorry :(. Really, I am. If you're going to do a search/replace on
> every document and every webpage in existence, then ... awesome!
>
> Otherwise, it's too late for you to change this terminology now.
All you need is for the next WoW to call itself a POW or a PSW or whatever
it likes and you've got a name change. The marketing team might even try to
pass it off as a new genre to create more buzz, much like MMO did in the
first place by differentiating itself from MU*. In fact, I'd say it's
inevitable that a AAA multi-user online title will spawn a new genre
sometime in the near future just to differentiate itself from all those 21
million (and growing) hits for MMO.
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Vincent Archer <archer@fr...org>

2008-09-29 14:35:57
According to Aurel:
> All you need is for the next WoW to call itself a POW or a PSW or whatever
> it likes and you've got a name change. The marketing team might even try to
Even WoW cannot do it.

Initially, World of Warcraft wasn't supposed to have "mobs". It was supposed
to have "creeps", because that's how they were called in Warcraft 3. The
devs used creeps all the time during alpha, and I think early beta.

Today, all the devs and community managers refer to mobs as... "mobs".

-- 
	Vincent Archer			Email:	archer@fr...org

All men are mortal.  Socrates was mortal.  Therefore, all men are Socrates.
							(Woody Allen)
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Zach Collins (Siege) <siegemail@gm...com>

2008-10-12 01:24:22
On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 10:35 AM, Vincent Archer <archer@fr...org> wrote:
> Initially, World of Warcraft wasn't supposed to have "mobs". It was supposed
> to have "creeps", because that's how they were called in Warcraft 3. The
> devs used creeps all the time during alpha, and I think early beta.
>
> Today, all the devs and community managers refer to mobs as... "mobs".
However, in Tower Defense type games, the enemies are often referred
to as creeps, because that's all they do: creep down the established
path, or toward the established goal.

-- 
Zach Collins (Siege)
"If code can be speech, then software can be art."
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14 messages in this thread from mud-dev2 in 2008-09